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No Prisoners, No Mercy
Host: Julie Whitefeather & Frances Kosac
There comes a time, friends, when your favorite MMO ceases to sparkle, when even new videogames lose their luster, and the computer room becomes a prison; and all that is left are two gamers (who happen to be nuns) with a very large axe to grind. Come join Julie Whitefeather and Frances Kosac as they go to War - and along the way discuss the events of the week in the MMO industry.

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Related site: http://www.virginworlds.com/blog.php?cat=julie


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No Prisoners, No Mercy - Show 61
Thu, 27 May 2010 01:32:00 GMT [download/play]



Join us for the triumphant return of Good Nun, Bad Nun! By request we have brought back this feature. This week we are joined by Saylah from Mystic Worlds, and Tipa from West Karana as we debate Turbine's Lord of the Rings Online!

Where has Turbine succeeded?
Where have they failed?
How can it be improved?
Will Sister Julie ever recover  her voice?


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Episode 61 Discussion Thread

'In before the wailing...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2010-05-27 19:11:46 CST
First off thanks for having us on. It was fun as always. Since the Sisters are already getting emails, I'd like to remind listeners that this was Good Nun vs. Bad Nun and not a round table discussion. It was designed to be heavily for and heavily against. *smile*

That said, some part of me realized as we were recording that LOTRO fans might swallow their tongues, given how strongly Tipa and I contributed as Bad Nuns. It's just opinion and I recall mentioning that I know lots of players love the game, I'm just not among them. I'm certain if we did a similar show about Harvest Moon, there would be lines forming to tell me that's a dumb azz and boring game, even though I happen to have adored it. :-)

Pleasure as always. See you in the TKR show down over LOTRO. *kidding*



'TKO?' by Julie
Submitted on 2010-05-27 22:35:18 CST
TKR? Team Kiwi racing? Team Knight Rider?

I was given permission by the author of one such missive to quote him in the latest entry over at noprisonersnomercy.com entitled "If it quacks like a duck".

You are quite correct however - the whole point was to bring back "Good Nun, Bad Nun" and was done by request. The problem, of course, is that it is hard to have such a feature without some heavy on the "bad nun" side (or good nun dependingo whether or not you like Lotro).

And yes, we have already had a request by one popular member of the blogosphere to appear on the show, and this time in a round table discussion. And so begins the herculean task of arranging a future show around five schedules (expect it around show 64).

Julie



'Ugh.' by Checksix
Submitted on 2010-05-28 00:30:43 CST
"I don't like the graphics."
To each there own. World of Warcraft looks like a 13 y.o. boys strange macho fantasy. Seriously...every door in WOW is like 4 feet thick! Whats up with that? Does an outhouse need that much protection?

But, as I said to each there own.

"It's boring. I couldn't play past 15 levels."
As it is today, you can level to 20 in about two play sessions. (i play on average 1 to 2 hours at a time).

So what can you do in the first 20 levels? Book quests, meet gandalf and Stryder, fight zombies and barrow whights (not just bears) run around the in the WORLD CREATED BY J.R.R TOLKEN.

Anyway, if you can't find something interesting to do it's not because there isn't anything interesting to do. As my mother use to say "If you're bored you're not paying attention."

"The game is in sepia."
The game's understaed enviornments are subtle and beautiful. How in the world can you say Conan was wounderful and not complain about those enviornments? Now look, I love Conan too but that game is brown brown brown...and I like it that way. I felt like a classical age warrior.

"Characters run around in a murderous rage killing everything."
Gimili and Legolas kept score. Score, Tipia. Nuff said.

"Oh I have to kill boars and bears."
Welcome to MMO's. You must be new here.

"I want to kill something interesting!"
How about orcs, undead dragons, weights, gobblins, evil men. Yeah and some bears.

The arguments that you guys came up with aginst LoTRO just tired me.



'One more thing...' by Checksix
Submitted on 2010-05-28 00:34:27 CST
"Punishing".
I think you're talking about the traits. I raid in Moria and in Loth and I've never, let me repeat never, paid attention to my traits. If you choose to gring out a little extra buff, be my guest. I'll be playing the game.



'Bad, bad nun' by Julie
Submitted on 2010-05-28 02:22:41 CST
Keep in mind that as Saylah mentioned, "That said, some part of me realized as we were recording that LOTRO fans might swallow their tongues, given how strongly Tipa and I contributed as Bad Nuns."

The whole point was to revive Good Nun/Bad Nun (as was requested). The problem was finding someone who was daring enough, who was bold enough, to take the opposing viewpoint to a game that was likely to engender such strong defenders.

So if it creates a bit of a rukus, well then mission accomplished.

Me? I have a lifetime subscription and still play the game (level 63 at the moment)

Julie



'It's not my job to make a game fun Checkstix' by Saylah
Submitted on 2010-05-28 13:45:07 CST
I've played just about every AAA fantasy MMO that has released in the past 10 years. It's not my job to make a game fun or "find the fun" in a game. I always find it amusing that when people think I should work at finding the fun in entertainment. I wonder do those same people regularly sit through movies they don't enjoy looking for the good parts? Do you engage in other hobbies you don't engage trying to "make it fun"? Why should I exert myself attempting to make a game, which is another form of entertainment fun, when there are SO many other games at my disposal? I bought the game but decided it was not worth a subscription price to me personally. Under a different payment model - perhaps but not that one.

LOTRO isn't everyone's cup of tea regardless of the fact that it is Lord of the Rings. If I played MMOs purely for the ambiance, I wouldn't have enjoyed WOW as long as I played but that's not why I play. And for all the reasons I stated, LOTRO simply didn't work for me. I obviously found it less fun than all the other MMOs that were available to me. And that impression and lack of enjoyment were so strong that it remains one of the few games I purchased but have never ever considered re-subbing to check thing out again, that's how much I disliked the game title that got me interested in MMOs in the first place.



'I like the concept of the "bad nun" but the execution was lacking' by Docholiday
Submitted on 2010-05-28 22:36:55 CST
I initially stopped listening to this 20 minutes in, but 2 days later decided to actually give it a complete listen such that I could intelligently comment on the whole episode and not just the first 20 minutes.

You would've been better off making this a 5 minute clip of "we didn't like the art style and all the options to kill wildlife" instead of an hour long complaint. Yes LOTRO has grinds, but some people do enjoy grinding and others grind to excel in the content they enjoy. You obviously don't, but that doesn't mean you have to exaggerate or leave out other game play aspects to prove your points. And as Checksix mentions, you don't have to grind if you don't want to and still be able to compete in the end-game content.

I'm not saying LOTRO is perfect, but so much of this episode is opinion based or just flat wrong that it really soured me on the podcast in general. At the end of the day, we all have the choice to play what we like, and you didn't like LOTRO. That's your choice but if you're going to make negative comments about LOTRO (or anything for that matter) you should either research it or admit you don't know what you're talking about.

Chances are, it will be very hard for you guys to do an accurate good nun/bad nun for an entire game. because who's going to play a game they don't like long enough to really understand it? Perhaps you should focus on a specific element and compare that element across different gamest. That way you could do some research on that topic and have an informed discussion not just an opinionated rant.



'Some of the people some of the time' by Julie
Submitted on 2010-05-29 00:02:43 CST
"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."



'Ugh II...the revenge.' by Checksix
Submitted on 2010-05-29 01:43:01 CST
Well, Saylah, thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.

What you accused me of saying:
"find the fun" in a game. I always find it amusing that when people think I should work at finding the fun in entertainment.

What I actually said:
"If you're bored you're not paying attention."

So, you see Saylah, I never said you should work to find the fun in the game. What I said was, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to be bored.

And, Julie, I enjoy a little ruckus now and then too ;) I've been known to scrap around here a time or two.



'raising a ruckus' by Julie
Submitted on 2010-05-29 03:15:38 CST
Raise a ruckus? You bet. I can just see a show where everyone agrees on everything. It would be an hour of this.

Julie: Great game

Fran: Yup

Guest A: I really like it.

Julie: Yup

Guest B: Do you know what I think?

Julie: What?

Guest B: Great game.

Julie: Yup



'And whats more' by Julie
Submitted on 2010-05-29 03:25:04 CST
Perhaps thats why its called the NO prisoners, NO mercy show and not the "my fluffy pretty pony show"

So as the French say "Viva la Difference!"




'Means pretty much the same thing...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2010-05-29 04:33:05 CST
It strongly assumes that I'm missing something that is most assuredly entertaining - not boring because someone else finds it enjoyable. Like I said, I've played many other MMOs without feeling that way about the game play. It's just wasn't my cup of tea.


'Welcome Back' by Julie
Submitted on 2010-05-29 13:53:24 CST
And just so we are clear on the matter, Saylah is one of our favorite guests and is welcome back any time she wants. There is much vehemence amongst gamers who seem intent that everyone should like the game they play.

Still...

Let me reiterate the offer for anyone to have their say on the show. Send in an MP3 or Wav file. Keep it clean, and no personal attacks on our guests (you can insult me as long as you don't mind me giving it right back to you - and I am GOOD at the dozens.)

So do you feel you game has been done an injustice? Air your feelings...literally.

Do you want to record a session with somone (hard to do but possible, much depends on things like schedules and clarity produced by the internet connection that will carry your voice - editing can only do so much).

So there you have it - put your mouth where your writing is.

Oh and it would occasioinally be nice to hear when something is good as well, but I know that goes against human nature.



'dont worry about me...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2010-05-29 14:22:16 CST
I don't feel attacked. Others are not required to agree with me, just like I'm not required to agree with them or how they happen to feel about a particular game. Game appeal is extremely subjective. There is not right way to feel or correct opinion about one.. :-)


'zzzzzzz' by Token
Submitted on 2010-05-29 17:23:36 CST
I wish to complain about this episode. Lotro's graphics and quests were viciously attacked, but the horrendously boring combat system wasn't even mentioned. It's like a metronome of boring. It's awful, probably designed for people old enough to have teenage kids. Ergghhh I'm falling asleep just thinking about it.


'I understand.' by Checksix
Submitted on 2010-05-29 22:51:16 CST
I get it Saylah, I understand.

I try to explain to my 12 year old son that steak is better than McDonalds chicken McNuggets. That Hawthorn and Frost is more meaningfull in the long run than "Diary of a Whimpy Kid" and "Harry Potter". He doesn't get it either. I some point I still hope he might.

SO my point is not that you should work to like LoTRO. But that the fact that you are bored by it says more about you, IMHO, than about it.

I know that sounds ad hominem. I don't exactly mean it to be.



'There is no better only what you happen to prefer...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2010-05-30 01:40:33 CST
There are millions of people who would say steak isn't any good either and would put it in the same boat as McD's. For example, the millions of vegetarians and people whose religion don't condone the eating of beef. See what I did there? And Frost is better than HP in the long run of what? By whose standard and conditions is this "long run of better" being defined? Is it the standard of a piece of literature that brought millions of young people back to reading? Or is the standard for a piece of literature that has raised and donated millions to charity? No, it can't be that standard but be something else, which you and others who may feel the same have defined for yourselves. However, stating as if it were fact doesn't make it so.

There is s no universal standard for what constitutes boring in any form of entertainment, much less a game. There is only opinion and preference.



'Lets have this lesson again...' by Checksix
Submitted on 2010-05-30 03:49:00 CST
What you accused me of saying:
And Frost is *BETTER* than HP in the long run of what?

What I actually said:
That Hawthorn and Frost is *MORE MEANINGFULL* in the long run than "Diary of a Whimpy Kid" and "Harry Potter".

Seriously, if you're going to rebutt, do more re and less butt.

My point still stands: IF you are bored in LoTRO, it's your own fault.

And, given the choice, I'm sure that just about anyone would agree that Steak is more substantive and nourishing than chicken McNuggets.

And my argument is: LoTRO is more substantive than WoW.

And, my dear, if there is ANY literary expert in the entire world that would say that Hairy Potter is of the same literary caliber as The Scarlet Letter or The House of Seven Gables I'll eat my dam hat with salt. I mean, that point you tried to make up there was just...




'You're not sticking to your own rules' by Saylah
Submitted on 2010-05-30 05:21:06 CST
You said, "better than" which can't be defined anymore universally to a standard, than what is or isn't boring. And you didn't say literary caliber, you said "more meaningful". And once again I'll say, what is "meaningful" to one person, isn't meaningful to another. Your complete failure to recognize that you can't define what is BORING or not boring to someone else really is astounding.


'P.S.' by Saylah
Submitted on 2010-05-30 05:37:13 CST

"And my argument is: LoTRO is more substantive than WoW"...

If that's your argument then I think you're arguing with yourself. Feel free to switch to that argument if you've realized that you don't own the definition or style guide for what constitutes "meaningful" or "boring".

However, I don't recall anyone on the podcast saying that WOW was more substantive than LOTRO. In fact, I don't recall anyone coming to any sort of conclusion about WOW vs. LOTRO. WOW came up when citing examples - Fran's preference for those stylistic graphics and my examples of the different types of quest interactions Blizzard has had the opportunity to add and improve upon since release.




'I'm sure.' by Checksix
Submitted on 2010-05-31 02:21:07 CST
I'm sure, Saylah, that you are astounded. Even dumbfounded. But it's not that I determine what is boring to one person or another.

It's simply this. IF you are bored with LoTRO, it says more about the kind of MMO player you are than the kind of game it is. In the same way the people can be bored with great literature. Bored with symphonies. It's not that there isn't substance there, it's that you don't see it. For what ever reason, which I'm sure is your very own.

LoTRO has alot to offer. The classes are not cookie cutter. The lore is second to none. The quests are interesting (esp. the Book quests). The combat is challenging at higher levels (as it should be). The art is amazing.

So you see, I'm saying that if you've failed to see any of these things in LoTRO you were not paying attention. If things like this don't appeal to you as an MMO player, youre a dullard. A rube. Simple. etc.