VirginWorlds.com - Exploring Massively Multiplayer Games

Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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Shut Up. We're Talking #36
Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:03:00 GMT [download/play]

Introductions

Listener mail/What we're playing

PvE and PvP

MMO Design

Blog of the Week

Hosts:

Darren - Commonsensegamer.com

Karen - Journey's with Jaye

John - Ancient Gaming Noob

Phillip - The Warpath Podcast

Topics:

ZOMG! Zombies!!

MMO Design

Blog of the Week:

Miner With Fangs

Previous Episodes
Episode #77 - Duration: 2925 - Released: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:16:01 +0000
Episode #76 - Duration: 7730 - Released: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:34:01 +0000
Episode #75 - Duration: 4659 - Released: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:57:48 +0000
Episode #74 - Duration: 4071 - Released: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:22:45 +0000
Episode #73 - Duration: 4943 - Released: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:41:07 +0000
Episode #72 - Duration: 4707 - Released: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:28:52 +0000
Episode #71 - Duration: 3820 - Released: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 16:39:28 +0000
Episode #70 - Duration: 4623 - Released: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:51:32 +0000
Episode #69 - Duration: 4837 - Released: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:07:07 +0000
Episode #68 - Duration: 01:13:32 - Released: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:34:00 GMT
Episode #67 - Duration: 01:12:09 - Released: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:24:00 GMT
Episode #66 - Duration: 00:59:30 - Released: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:26:00 GMT
Episode #65 - Duration: 01:23:43 - Released: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:03:00 GMT
Episode #64 - Duration: - Released: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:51:00 GMT
Episode #63 - Duration: 01:13:26 - Released: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:52:00 GMT
Episode #62 - Duration: 01:12:04 - Released: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:28:00 GMT
Episode #61 - Duration: 01:26:12 - Released: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:26:00 GMT
Episode #60 - Duration: 01:57:27 - Released: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:34:00 GMT
Episode #59 - Duration: 01:37:24 - Released: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 03:48:00 GMT
Episode #58 - Duration: 01:21:01 - Released: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:45:00 GMT
Episode #57 - Duration: 01:47:46 - Released: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:01:00 GMT
Episode #56.5 - Duration: 00:02:21 - Released: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:26:00 GMT
Episode #56 - Duration: 01:01:53 - Released: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:41:00 GMT
Episode #55 - Duration: 01:16:27 - Released: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:31:00 GMT
Episode #54 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:51:00 GMT
Episode #53 - Duration: 01:31:47 - Released: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:12:00 GMT
Episode #52.5 - Duration: 00:04:12 - Released: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 19:43:00 GMT
Episode #52 - Duration: 01:04:24 - Released: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:35:00 GMT
Episode #51 - Duration: 01:17:30 - Released: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:49:00 GMT
Episode #50 - Duration: 01:35:33 - Released: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:15:00 GMT
Episode #49 - Duration: 01:03:31 - Released: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:27:00 GMT
Episode #48 - Duration: 01:13:44 - Released: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:25:00 GMT
Episode #47 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:21:00 GMT
Episode #46 - Duration: 01:27:11 - Released: Mon, 4 May 2009 02:05:00 GMT
Episode #45 - Duration: 01:04:36 - Released: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:01:00 GMT
Episode #44 - Duration: 00:56:47 - Released: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:15:00 GMT
Episode #43.1 - Duration: 00:18:59 - Released: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:11:00 GMT
Episode #43 - Duration: 00:59:34 - Released: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:24:00 GMT
Episode #42 - Duration: 01:11:28 - Released: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:14:00 GMT
Episode #41 - Duration: 01:06:59 - Released: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:55:00 GMT
Episode #40.5 - Duration: 00:02:50 - Released: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:48:00 GMT
Episode #40 - Duration: 01:16:52 - Released: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:45:00 GMT
Episode #39 - Duration: 01:08:43 - Released: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:01:00 GMT
Episode #38 - Duration: 00:37:38 - Released: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:49:00 GMT
Episode #37 - Duration: - Released: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:26:00 GMT
Episode #36 - Duration: 01:10:59 - Released: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:03:00 GMT
Episode #35 - Duration: 00:49:08 - Released: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:54:00 GMT
Episode #34 - Duration: 01:08:50 - Released: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:38:00 GMT
Episode #33 - Duration: 00:58:54 - Released: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 01:42:00 GMT
Episode #32 - Duration: 01:03:27 - Released: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:01:00 GMT
Episode #31 - Duration: 01:05:03 - Released: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:13:00 GMT
Episode #30 - Duration: 00:59:20 - Released: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:44:00 GMT
Episode #29 - Duration: 00:28:31 - Released: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:48:00 GMT
Episode #28 - Duration: 01:09:13 - Released: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:31:00 GMT
Episode #27 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:42:00 GMT
Episode #26 - Duration: 01:06:47 - Released: Mon, 19 May 2008 03:10:00 GMT
Episode #25 - Duration: 01:01:48 - Released: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:46:00 GMT
Episode #24 - Duration: 00:57:48 - Released: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:00:00 GMT
Episode #23 - Duration: 00:47:54 - Released: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:05:00 GMT
Episode #22 - Duration: 01:12:16 - Released: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:54:00 GMT
Episode #21 - Duration: 01:56:55 - Released: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 05:01:00 GMT
Episode #20 - Duration: 00:49:01 - Released: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:08:00 GMT
Episode #19 - Duration: 01:01:05 - Released: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:08:00 GMT
Episode #18 - Duration: 01:08:01 - Released: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:35:00 GMT
Episode #17 - Duration: 01:36:26 - Released: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 04:07:00 GMT
Episode #16 - Duration: 01:06:39 - Released: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:58:00 GMT
Episode #15 - Duration: 01:33:23 - Released: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:24:00 GMT
Episode #14 - Duration: 01:24:15 - Released: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:47:00 GMT
Episode #13 - Duration: 01:22:18 - Released: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:30:00 GMT
Episode #12 - Duration: 01:17:38 - Released: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:55:00 GMT
Episode #11 - Duration: 01:17:01 - Released: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:30:00 GMT
Episode #10 - Duration: 01:00:37 - Released: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 03:33:00 GMT
Episode #9 - Duration: 01:12:13 - Released: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:47:00 GMT
Episode #8 - Duration: 01:24:35 - Released: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:44:00 GMT
Episode #7 - Duration: 01:11:21 - Released: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:05:00 GMT
Episode #6 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:13:00 GMT
Episode #5 - Duration: 00:58:57 - Released: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:50:00 GMT
Episode #4 - Duration: 01:13:04 - Released: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 03:52:00 GMT
Episode #3 - Duration: 01:10:25 - Released: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:20:00 GMT
Episode #2 - Duration: 01:09:48 - Released: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:20:00 GMT
Episode #1 - Duration: 01:08:21 - Released: Mon, 28 May 2007 02:12:00 GMT

Episode 36 Discussion Thread

'level rush?' by AdmiralAwesome
Submitted on 2008-11-02 23:52:43 CST
Great show but i got a question about the last part, first of all 15 hours for one lvl is crazy im geting a lvl every 5 hours at lvl 20+ but still onto my question:

Do you have to level to have fun? i did that in wow... but here in war i take my time, maybee i would of gained more exp if i ran some quest but instead me and the guild where killing puny dwarfs in black fire pass(tier 3 greenskin).

A shaman would jump of a rock near the order rvr camp and run around with half health, luring the order guys out - he runs to me playing a black ork who proceds by slowing down the melee and knocking em back from the shaman to keep him safe. when we got more then we can handle we call in the rest of the guild who blindside the stunties, riping the healers to shredds and then we make quick work of the melee.

okay that was not realy a question so here goes, im at the moment level 26 on my black orc, whats the point of leveling up when im still having fun in tier 3? and if your in a hurry to get to the next level dont you miss the actual part thats fun about mmos - the journey?

'Do you have to level?' by Wilhelm2451

Submitted on 2008-11-02 23:59:59 CST
Well, 15 hours of play to get from level 14->15 wouldn't be so bad if we were having fun, but as I also said on the show, T2 is dead as far as the open RvR goes. So that drove both the desire to get my character along AND it helped hold me back since RvR was generating so little exp.

That aside, I think character advancement is an important aspect of any game like this. If you give people levels, they are going to fixate on them.

'WAR experience is based largely on server population' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-11-03 12:05:09 CST
I had the misfortune in WAR to initially roll on a low population server. The lack of a T3 playerbase resulting in T3 scenarios never popping and empty PvE zones had me on the verge of quitting.
On Friday the server transfers were offered and I jumped at the chance to move to a higher populated server. The result was that I acutally had fun this weekend. The game feels entirely different when you can see people actually doing PQs, scenarios pop nearly instantly, and open RvR actually occurs.

Something has to be done to "buff" the game 1-20 since new players will find the game pretty lonely and the drudgery that is solo pve will not keep anyone interested for 20 levels. This will only get worse as the game matures.
Maybe they should consider creating a optional "leveling" server where players can roll new characters and then be offered a free transfer off of them at level 20ish. Throw a lower level cap on the server so that people won't consider it a permanent home.

'Great cast ' by welshtroll

Submitted on 2008-11-03 15:10:13 CST
Enjoyed the show folks, thanks.

Just to pick up on a topic that Karen covered.

I too find that with all MMOs I attempt to play with my clan they steamroller ahead of me as they get more time to play per day. Give it about 2 weeks and they get so far ahead that I can't team with them.

This is s one of the main problems that normally causes me to cancel my subscription and had really caused me to avoid going near Warhammer.

This is one of the main reason I play and admire the City of Heroes/Villains game as their Sidekick/Lackey - Exemplar/Malefactor system is a fantastic method to allow friends to team up, either bring your friend along on your higher level missions or you dropping to their level.

To further expand on that idea they are introducing a system that allows you to create a Leveling Pact with a friend so you will always remain at the same level even if one of you doesn't play that often.

I think that the sooner games can embrace the fact that people like to team with friends the sooner systems like the above can start to creep into other mmo titles.

'Well said welshtroll' by FarSpace

Submitted on 2008-11-03 23:57:02 CST
I agree, I am a big fan of CoX for reasons like that.

And may I add they have server transfers cheap, about $10 + tax, so all you other MMO's out there who are not doing things like these, please get with it, don't be shy.

One thing is about me personaly is I useualy always go solo, in every MMORPG I played but not CoX, so trust me game makers, if you got these features in the game and more that will allow you and give you reasons to be with others then the games last ages longer and every ones happy. Do'nt just do things like force them to have to be with other, just give them easy access and fun reasons etc...

Great show from minute 1 to the last 07 solute!

'I Eat Carebears' by ScytheNoire
Submitted on 2008-11-04 03:56:56 CST
What a bunch of whiny sissy carebear players WoW has. The Zombie Plague sounded like the coolest thing Blizzard has EVER done in WoW. EVER. I played from Beta to around the beginning of this year. The game is boring, bland, nothing to do. It doesn't know if it's a PvE or PvP game. It has most of it's content for PvE, and then tries to balance itself for PvP. It's a pathetic joke that they want their Arena's to be an E-Sport.

So they finally do something fun and creative. And what do WoW players, and some of thsoe on the podcast do? They whine about it. How pathetic.

This is why I hate WoW and will never play it again. I would rather never play another MMO than play a game full of whiny carebear players.

You may bash WAR, but at least WAR is fun, has balance, knows what it is about, which is RvR, balances for that, and has more content at launch than WoW had in it's first few years.

'Awww...' by Wilhelm2451

Submitted on 2008-11-04 10:55:02 CST
I'm sorry that you missed out on the zombie event ScytheNoire. I'm sure you would have gotten a great deal of satisfaction running your level 70 out to a noob zone and stomping on level 1 players.

'LOTRO's Hero Complex' by Jaxom92

Submitted on 2008-11-04 16:02:34 CST
I think LOTRO does an excellent job of making you feel like a hero in their epic quest line. In my opinion, this is one of the best things this game has going for it. As a Tolkien fan, I greatly appreciate the attention to story with these quests. They really do make you feel like a hero the moment that you step in. Or, if not a hero, someone who can make a difference.

I also think that they do have a scattering of NPCs that don't just stand around, but again, this is mostly seen in the epic story, particularly in the later books. Without delving into spoilers, you get greatly wrapped up in the story of an elf named Laeradren who follows along with you as you go through the quest lines. Further more, he joins or or you join him in many of the quests. In the non-instanced world, he's in various places, though you don't actually see him walking around from place to place.

I would love to see NPCs who are in different places at different times. One has to balance that if they're an NPC that players need to interact with, but like Karen said, a king that roams around his realm would be a nice touch, rather than one who sits on his throne 24/7 for the life of the game.

Unfortunately, LOTRO doesn't go far enough with this. We still have static NPCs that stand in the same place saying the same things. Or selling junk armor. And NPCs that still think the world is such and such when you just spent the last 10 levels trying to make the world something else entirely.

II think this is a symptom of a much larger problem with MMOs in general - real change requires continual content creation and is "unfair" to new players who will not see the older content because the world has moved on. The very nature of the MMO prevents what we MMO players are most looking for in our hearts. I have to wonder if we as a player base and the developer community in general will ever be willing to step outside our respective comfort zones (and ensured moneymaking potential) and make something that sure, will guaranteed exclude a lot people but will also give us a changing environment, one where yes, we can be a real hero.

'The Hero' by iphigenia

Submitted on 2008-11-13 14:51:59 CST
Player behavior in MMO environments; specifically how communities (as well as individuals) choose to represent and conduct themselves is not just affected by the relative anonymity of online play and supposed "lowest common denominator" attracted by more accessable games...

It is perhaps even more drastically influenced by the game dynamics that are the context of these interactions. Risk vs. reward, play mechanics in battle systems, and ratio of PVE to PVP content (as well as other things) can create and foster environments of co-operation and communication or conversely, competition and civil unrest.

Although we all play with our own interests in mind and compete with other players (Wouldn't it be boring and unlike us to do otherwise?), the game itself in the very nature of it's gameplay and construction (regardless whether it is "easy mode" or "old-school hardcore" flavor of MMO) can influence the general attitudes of players. RvR, PK, forced-grouping and "raiding" content all change the way people behave in the larger context and not just during a seasonal event gone wrong.

I urge everyone to take a good look at what they love and hate about their favourite title and then consider just what kind of community has been forged as a result of the attitudes inherent in these play modes. These worlds function as they were built. Are you happy with the world that has been built for you? How would you change it to likewise change the way people interact within it?

'Hero II' by iphigenia

Submitted on 2008-11-13 15:22:17 CST
I have always felt like I am the protagonist and ultimately the hero while playing Final Fantasy XI.

Despite many things that can be griped about, this title has no competition when it comes to storyline and portrayal of your character as the star in every cutscene.

The final soft-cap limitbreak quest to advance a character to 75 alone is all about you being a hero and pitting you against a single equal to test your skills.

The missions and history present in the connecting expansion packs is so well written and thought out that other games pale in comparison.

Is this game a bit of an oldschool Japanese grindfest? You bet. Likewise it's also got as much in common with the single player RPGs of our youths: story in spades.

I expect this much from any next gen MMO. Hope one is created someday. ^^